FOR THE LOVE OF FRIKKING BHUDDA!

Author	Comment
Roger Paulen Flint (9/27/00 01:11:52 am)	Re: Suckland Hi all, I am getting enough email in my inbox to warrant this issue being discussed. It is fairly common knowledge about "Suckland" and thus the gods and creation mailing list is included. Although no guidelines were set at the time, I will briefly bring some order to the confusion brought about as a result of Suckland. Handing a copy of the code over to the "Shriners" was done with Dale's and my blessing (and presumably Dean, whom Dale is often in contact with). Dale wanted as as little involvement as possible, so it is safe to assume that I speak for him as well: Code 1. Suckland is to have no code from Arctic dating past June 26. I choose this date because it is the first entry in the wizlog in Suckland. Any code committed prior to that point is the property of Arcticmud, and not the coder from which it derived. A copy of any specific code written by previous coders for Arctic should be supplied to them, upon written request. Consider June 26th the branching of the tree so to speak, each branch growing separately and independantly. 2. If a previous coder insists on not having their code on Suckland, prior to June 26th, that is an issue between the coder and those in charge of Suckland and we (Arctic Admin) do not want to be involved. If there is a real problem here, then I am sure someone bright at Suckland would do us all a favour and just rewrite that portion of the code. 3. I am aware that there are coders currently working on both projects. I would consider any code they contribute to Arctic as their intellectual property and if they want to add it to Suckland, they have every right to do so. I do not, however, want to see future code of Arctic copied to Suckland (ie. a coder exclusive to Arctic adds something special to Arctic, then coder working at Suckland who has Arctic code access is not to drag it over to Suckland; and vice versa. We (Arctic Admin) do not plan to police this, it is something we trust you to follow. If I get complaints, it can be arranged for access to Arctic code to be terminated. Zones 1. All active zones were copied over to Suckland. I understand that Suckland is removing all references to TSR's Dragonlance. This means zones there are getting revamped or removed. The creation policy on Arctic comes into play here: zones that are in the game are the property of Arctic. 2. Although we (Arctic Admin) do not plan to police this, it would be a goodwill gesture for Suckland to remove any zones that went into Arctic after January 1st, 2000 (a 6 month grace period) if the original creator of said zones requests so in writing. Any zones older than that, I consider it an issue between the original builder and Suckland and we (Arctic Admin) do not plan to get involved. 3. Any new zones built for Arctic after June 26th are not to be copied over to Suckland. 4. All revamped zones are to be given credit in one form or another to their original builders on Arctic. Immortal Policy I offer the statement made by Nathan Betz: > When we were given the green light, the two major > issues that were communicated to me were 1) that we do our utmost to > prevent the dissemination of any knowledge to anyone who still > has an interest in playing Arctic, and 2) that we fully credit the > hard work of all of the Arctic staff. Both of these have been done in > good faith. We make it clear to anyone who wants any kind of creation > privileges on Suckland that it is a one-way ticket, and that they are > not to play Arctic or communicate any game secrets to Arctic players. > We have been very strict about only letting Shriners even have access > to Suckland. I can attest to this personally, as I have a level 37 on Suckland to play the "watchdog" if any complaints are brought to my attention. I don't plan to spend the time doing so unless absolutely necessary. 1. Once all the zone and code revamps are completed on Suckland, they are free to let anyone they want to play. If they go public, it is assumed they will have their own immortal policy and Arctic will not interfere. It is to be expected that they will provide their own security for the code base and are not to give it to anyone (another branch on the tree?) without the written permission of Dale and myself (and presumably Dean). Personal note here: Frankly, I am quite flattered to see spin-offs of something we all have taken pride in over the years. Seeing my work develop on other muds without my time and energy wasted is a compliment to my work in my own opinion. Who would have thought such a project started in 1992 would have taken such a wild ride... Happy mudding Roger (Flint)
Cale (9/27/00 5:31:44 am)	Re: Suckland After hearing from quite a few others on this issue, I thought I'd summarize what I've heard with my own interpretations of where the problems lie. At every other time in the past that I've heard this mentioned, it was stated that the code and areas supplied would be "Hobbes-era" code. That is, code and areas that are five or six years old. Under those conditions, most people really don't have much problem as the work done by that timeframe was Dean's, Dale's, etc...either people involved in the decision or people that are no longer involved with Arctic and presumably would not care. By giving them a recent copy of code and areas, that is no longer the case. A lot more people then become involved that have contributed in whatever way. These contributions were labored upon with the intention of advancing Arctic and making it a better place to mud. It is understood that these items become the property of Arctic to be used and modified by Arctic as the staff sees fit to advance Arctic. However, based on this, it is a breach of the good faith agreement between Arctic and the contributers when these items are then given away to other muds. This is further compounded by the fact that some non-insignificant portion of the contributers have specific issues against the mud that their work is being handed to as well as various members of the staff of that mud. I won't go into details as they will vary from person to person and aren't very relevant except that they exist and are not non-minor. Finally, the main problem is that, as I've already mentioned, these contributions were given to Arctic for the purpose of advancing Arctic. However, by supplying these to other muds, it is actually a detriment to Arctic. First, by reducing our competitive edge. Secondly, due to this, there are several people who have communicated to me that they will no longer contribute to Arctic because they do not want their hard work to be distributed and I know several others well enough to know that they will stop contributing now that they are aware of this. Third, also due to this, there is now a rift between members of the staff who are arctic-only and members of the staff who are contributing to both muds because several of the arctic-only staff feel because of the precedent of work and ideas being supplied to the other mud that any ideas that they share with the shared contributers would ended up being placed on the other mud. Arctic's reputation for years has been that of a very tight security with no sharing of work with outside resources and I dare to say that most people contributed to Arctic based on the reasonable assumption that this would continue and their work not distributed to be hacked apart by any yahoo with a text editor. This reputation has now been sullied by this incident. "Cale"
Nathan Betz Bane (9/27/00 3:41:49 pm)	Re: Suckland I don't think this needs to be a long, drawn out discussion, but I would like to make a few points, some of which may help alleviate some concerns. First of all, I would like to make it clear that Suckland is not -competing- with Arctic. It's a private project that a small group of Shriners is working on. Currently, and for the forseeable future, no outsiders have access to it, and if we ever did open to the public, which I think is a pretty remote possibility, I guarantee you it would have very little in common with the current Arctic. Arctic has given us all a lot, and no one has ill will for Arctic. We simply have different philosophies about how the game should be run, and think there's room on the Internet for some alternative ideas to be explored. Also, let us not forget that the Shriners have contributed a lot to Arctic over the years; code, creation, and otherwise. We're not so petty as to say that those contributions shouldn't continue to be used by Arctic. Heck, the front page of the www.arctic.org still uses the same text that I wrote like 5 years ago. The point is that, we shouldn't let a few personality conflicts, which is what I think this boils down to, prevent some mutual cooperation here. Finally, I would have been quite satisfied with an older version of Arctic, as I originally discussed with Dale. However, we were given a more recent version, with some restrictions that we are happy to abide to. We've been working for three months now, and I don't think it's very reasonable to expect us to start over again with an older version at this point. We will be happy to try to accomodate requests from specific creators, maybe we can work something out. By the way, we apparently aren't the only ones interested in exploring some change, based upon the interest in helping out shown by non-Shriners just since this contraversy began. Best regards, Nate ("Bane") P.S. Xena, don't worry, we'd rather use the glorious old Tarsis, anyway. Welcome back, Pierre!
Brian Brennan Sirrion (9/27/00 4:51:58 pm)	Re: Suckland I'm not an active Suckland or Arctic person anymore, but having had not a small amount of my time, energy, and would ya believe it, MONEY vested into the first four years of Arctic's code, library, and server resources, I think I have the right to chime in. Cale mentioned that the big reason he was opposed to this "split" was because somehow Arctic would lose a "competitive edge". Competitive edge? In a free game? Versus who... other free games? Maybe EverQuest? Ultima Online, perhaps? Maybe even Shadowbane or Anarchy Online? Yeah, they're all pretty scared. I'd assert that the true reason for his opposition his that it's versus his long time bitter rivals, the Shriners. If some other entity, in the same position as the Shriners are now, wanted to split the code base I suspect his reaction would be much different, if not non-existant. But then anyone with a 60 IQ or better could see that, so I won't belabor it. It's been stated time and time again that Suckland is a private Shriner playground, and will stay that way. Hell, it was one of the terms agreed to when the code was first branched. And, unlike some of the more vocal Arctic personnel of past and present, Shriners have always had honor. Need I remind you also that Alan Krantz branched the Arctic tree some time ago to form LeviathanMUD, just so he would have his own playground? But fear not, dear Cale, no one is gong to try and make a commerical venture out of a text-based mud. For one, it's against the original DikuMUD license. But moreso, not one Shriner is stupid enough to believe it'd be profitable, especially in light of current technology. You should be glad Suckland exists. It gives you something you've probably always wanted - no Shriners on Arctic. Besides, like it or not, Shriners, as a collective, have put in a substantial portion of that mud. I've read about how the Shriners a la Suckland should have no rights to other creator's zones, code, etc. To say that, while vigorously defending a MUD that still to this day runs on a substantial amount of Shriner-engineered code, and Shriner-created zones, is purely hypocritical. Grow up.
Kay E. Lowell Xena (9/27/00 8:18:08 pm)	Re: Suckland Just a moment, please. There wasn't anything personal in his post, that I could see. It was merely a statement of fact that some of us who put a lot of "time, energy, and would ya believe it, MONEY" into the code (or the machine that runs it, thank you) aren't really pleased with having our work taken elsewhere. It could have been the Black Adders or the Pathfinders, or whatever Clan-du-Jour is presently active, that took the code, and we still would not have been pleased. As far as the competitive edge thing is concerned, comparing Arctic to Ultima or any of the newer online games is patently silly. I suspect the reference was to other Diku-based, text-only adventure games. I could, of course, be wrong. Responding to what was a very well-reasoned and well-put interpretation of events--based on input from other people!--with a major, personal, flame attack puts you, unfortunately, in the category of those who should "grow up."
Brian Brennan Sirrion (9/27/00 4:51:58 pm)	Re: Suckland There wasn't anything personal in his post, that I could see. Get some history lessons before you start wagging your finger. It was merely a statement of fact that some of us who put a lot of "time, energy, and would ya believe it, MONEY" into the code (or the machine that runs it, thank you) aren't really pleased with having our work taken elsewhere. It could have been the Black Adders or the Pathfinders, or whatever Clan-du-Jour is presently active, that took the code, and we still would not have been pleased. Gee, we're not pleased that the mud we've cumulatively put a whole HELL of a lot of work into now has staff that is treating us like shit. I'd wager you hadn't even heard of Arctic when we were originally building it. Before Cale even immorted, the mud was run and built dominantly by old-school Shriners. Since then, other Shriners have continued to contribue, despite Cale's resistance. So for you, Cale, and any other latter-day contributors to sit there on your high horses and claim, "this is our mud, and you can't have it" is completely hypocritical, and quite frankly, insulting. Responding to what was a very well-reasoned and well-put interpretation of events--based on input from other people!--with a major, personal, flame attack puts you, unfortunately, in the category of those who should "grow up." Perhaps, but this is my bazillionth spoonful of Cale-shit and I thought I had finally washed that taste out of my mouth.
Kay E. Lowell Xena (9/27/00 8:18:08 pm)	Re: Suckland Well well! Let me just insert myself into this mess one more time before I go away. Get some history lessons before you start wagging your finger. History of what? I've been around seven of the eight years, six of them as an immortal. Before Cale even immorted, the mud was run and built dominantly by old-school Shriners. The Shriners began as a joke in late 1993, well after the mud was originally built. It was a funny joke, too, with lots of shouts about the fez, and ham, and so forth. Lots of us were darn amused by it. They grew into quite a force to be reckoned with, and are respected for their contributions by many. Since then, other Shriners have continued to contribue, despite Cale's resistance. So for you, Cale, and any other latter-day contributors to sit there on your high horses and claim, "this is our mud, and you can't have it" is completely hypocritical, and quite frankly, insulting. A fair amount of the work that has happened since the end of Hobbes has been done by Shriners. I don't think anybody has any problem with that; they did great work, and so did a lot of other people. But for those of us who aren't shriners, aren't involved in the shriner list and -- unless I'm wrong, and I may well be -- can't get to this new mud, well... we're not happy that our work is being used in a way we have no say over. I don't believe I insulted anyone, but if you'd like, I'd be more than happy to insult you. :) Perhaps, but this is my bazillionth spoolful of Cale-shit and I thought I had finally washed that taste out of my mouth. Well, tell ya what. There's been a pile of horseshit from every direction for the last seven years on every Arctic-related forum I've read. Depends on whose style of leadership you like or don't like. There were a lot of overlords I personally couldn't stand, but I sure didn't go around slamming them in public forums; they were doing what they felt was right for the MUD. Even the overlords who I've admired have done things I really didn't like with the MUD, but again, I at least gave them the benefit of the doubt. And with that, dear friends, I do believe I have had just about the limit of the Arctic-related horseshit I can take for one lifetime. Thank you for listening. Kay E. Lowell Catalog Librarian James A. Michener Library University of Northern Colorado Greeley, CO 80639 [email protected]
Kay E. Lowell Xena (9/27/00 8:18:08 pm)	Re: Suckland (sent privately to Brian Brennan) According to the first post on this subject I got today, Arctic began in 1992. I began on Arctic in 1993 and immorted at the end of Hobbes. I've been around seven years and seen all the horseshit handed out by about two dozen immortals. And I don't know who you are, nor care what you think.
Brian Brennan Sirrion (9/27/00 4:51:58 pm)	Re: Suckland (sent privately to Kay E. Lowell) Funny I don't remember you then. I'm Sirrion. Check the credits.
Kay E. Lowell Xena (9/27/00 8:18:08 pm)	Re: Suckland (sent privately to Brian Brennan) And I'm Xena. Check the credits. Unless you've forgotten, I did state from the beginning that I was a minor contributor, but I did feel that I had the same right as everyone else to state my opinion. I tried hard not to do it by being obnoxious, though.
Brian Brennan Sirrion (9/27/00 4:51:58 pm)	Re: Suckland (sent privately to Kay E. Lowell) Funny, in 1993 I was an imp... and I have no recollection of a "Xena" or a "Kay" at any time. Oddly, you're not even in the credits. Your contributions back then must've been very minor. As much right as you have to your opinion, perhaps you should get all the facts about what it is you are stating your opinion on, and THEN stating it without lying about your credentials. I'll include the help entry for credits for your reference. Have a nice day. -Brian (Sirrion) [snipped: the entire text of the "credits" command]
Kay E. Lowell Xena (9/27/00 8:18:08 pm)	Re: Suckland (sent privately to Brian Brennan) Did I say I was an immortal in 1993? No. I said I began on Arctic in 1993. October of 1993, to be exact, and I was Xena then and still am. I immorted just before the end of Hobbes. I am currently a level 33 ("Goddess"). I wrote the current version of Tarsis, as well as the "interim" Tarsis that preceded it, and revamped several other zones for people who couldn't seem to write decent English. Look in the zone credits. Or has it been so long that you've been inactive that you don't know about those? Of course I'm not in the overall credits page, I didn't start the mud. As I stated earlier today, TWICE, I am just someone who made a contribution and isn't happy about what's being done with it. Now, excuse me, I have better things to do than to be insulted by someone who 1) can't carry on a civil conversation in a forum where many points of view should be represented ; 2) refuses to acknowledge that someone else MIGHT actually have accurate recollections of what happened seven years ago and ; 3) can't actually READ what is in front of his face.
Brian Brennan Sirrion (9/27/00 4:51:58 pm)	Transcript of session on Arctic Fenmore: Are you the new head of arctic, Sirrion? Sirrion: that's why I logged in actually Sirrion: my coronation is tonight Aristox: you and xena Aristox: can rule together Aristox: the sexual chemistry between you 2 is frightening Sirrion: she can be mah bitch Fenmore: that is frightening Sirrion: I find it odd that she doesn't remember me at all, having been here since 1993 ... or so she claims Fenmore: hmm I remember you and I've been here since 1995 or so Sirrion: she hasn't really replied to my last mail Bane: i remember you as the hardest fucking overlord on us Sirrion: she said she has been here since 1993 and doesn't remember me... I reminded her to check "HELP CREDITS" Bane: bastard Sirrion: yeah... ironic, no? Sirrion: spoke too soon, she just replied with some pretty amzing drivel Sirrion: accusing me of nopt even knowing what happened 7 years ago Qued: back soon Fenmore: worthy of thuler's glistening toilet ? Xena: well...you weren't the only one around then, ya know? Sirrion: you surely weren't Xena: in 1993? I surely was Sirrion: and you don't remember me as overlord then Xena: and let me just say this. You took every last thing I wrote and twisted it. Sirrion: that seems pretty odd Xena: did I say I was an IMP? no, I didn't. I said I was on Arctic in 1993 Xena: and I was. Pyrkaige: This is cool, I can't send anything to the Shriner list Sirrion: good for you Fenmore: I was on crack in 1993 Xena: well I'm so glad you're such an important fuck Sirrion: wow, you did one zone Xena: I actually did three. There's also one sitting on creation Sirrion: kudos Xena: big deal...was it a requirement that I performed miracles in order to express my opinion? Sirrion: no you're entitled to it Xena: and so I expressed it. Sirrion: but calling me out for not being overlord in 1993 was pretty dumb Xena: I never said that Xena: I said I didn't know who you were. I know lots of Brians Xena: as soon as you told me who you were, well of course I know the name Sirrion. Geezus. Aristox: why don't you 2 just have sex and get it over with Sirrion: and you think that the shriners shouldn't take a branch of the mud Sirrion: for their own personal use Sirrion: which isn't even going to be allowing anyone else Sirrion: and that strikes me as pretty damned selfish Xena: I object to having my work moved to a place where I have no access Sirrion: esp considering the mud you love so dearly Sirrion: was originally built a good portion by shriners Xena: I live with someone who was around from the day the mud opened, don't hand me that shit Bane: ooh Sirrion: what do you care what is done Sirrion: oh, who? Xena: if the people who built it became shriners later, that's cool, but therre were no shriners when the mud opened Sirrion: I'd love to see who else was "around" Xena: because the shriners didn't exist Sirrion: we may not have been "shriners" then, but we were around Xena: well that's fine...you built the mud, that's great, and you did a fine job of it. Xena: but you weren't Shriners Sirrion: no, dean and dale bult the mud, in the technical sense Xena: that's right Xena: not you Xena: not me Sirrion: and they agreed to let us have it Sirrion: so why can;'t you just shut up and abide by iut Xena: they did not build the version you got Xena: I don't give a good goddamn what happens to the mud Sirrion: so Sirrion: I built the code that allowed you to write the portion you wrote Xena: but I DO object to being called a liar and an idiot by someone who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about Sirrion: and quite frankly, your tarsis isn't even going to exist in suckland Xena: good! Xena: I'm pleased, in that case, my objection is entirely removed Sirrion: who doesn't know the history of arctic here, you or me? Xena: I think we both know our own versions of it Xena: what I don't know is the history of Suckland Sirrion: sure, your version, and the truth Xena: but unlike you, I am willing to admit that I might be wrong Sirrion: nor should you, suckland is none of your business Sirrion: thing is, xena, I'm not wrong Xena: and that's fine with me, I truly have more important things to do Qued: re all Xena: IT"S ONLY A FUCKING GAME Xena: stop taking yourself so seriously Sirrion: apparently not,m if you saw fit to stick your big nose into this Xena: now... my big objection was to your personal attack on Cale Pyrkaige: hey, I know you guys haven't been around much lately Xena: which was totally uncalled for Sirrion: your objection changes like the wind Pyrkaige: but we made this cool command called "goto" Bane: haha Pyrkaige: I think "tell" still works too Sirrion: and if I want to call Cale a pillow-biting shit-for-brains, that's my business Xena: if you have a problem with him, talk to him about it Sirrion: and we also have nowiz so zip it Xena: yes that's true, we do. But you all have been having fun talking about me, so you can just listen for a moment Pyrkaige: Naw, Sirrion's just been having fun talkign to himself Bane: we wouldn't want anything interesting to happen on arctic, for a change Sirrion: god forbid Pyrkaige: Oh that's right, spitting personal attacks is sooo "interesting" Sirrion: and even gfurther out of my realm of understanding... here you guys have a chance to get rid of all shriners, permanently Sirrion: and you object Pyrkaige: Sorry, I graduated from junior high a while ago Sirrion: good for you... onto high school then! Bane: haha Xena: I honestly don't know why I am bothering to respond to you anyway Pyrkaige: See ya at the milk line Sirrion: good ... mind your own business then Sirrion: Xena says 'fuck you' Sirrion: hahaha Sirrion: validation
Brian Brennan Sirrion (9/27/00 4:51:58 pm)	GK! Saw this on the immortal board: Message 15 (Wed Sep 27): Xena -- Gone ---------- Sorry folks, I've had enough of being insulted whenever I speak my mind. It's been a fun seven years. Hope all you shitheads at Suckland have fun. There's a lot of people I'll miss, but I'll bet the only person who will care that I'm gone will be Arkan, who can't now pump me for information I don't even have :) To borrow a phrase from Scott, who put it so nicely when Jhor quit: Xena has left the mud. << end of message 15 >>